Chat 15

[petarp]

Svaka cast Radoslave na poznavanju istorije, lepo je videti da neko pored posla kojeg svi radimo slobodno vreme trosi na kvalitetne stvari. Vidi se da si recit u svojim videima, a sad znam kako si to postigao.

 

[olalija]

Olalija

Gledaj ne Herodotovo delo kao celinu, ne bavi se detaljima. Okolnosti u kojima je živeo i stvarao su prožete proročanstvima i natprirodnim silama.
Možemo se sprdati sa tim, ali on nije imao od koga da uči i na osnovu nečijeg rada da uvidi gde je taj grešio.

Interesantno da te je on toliko opčinio, ako uzmemo u obzir da nije ni postojao, bar kako neki tvrde, što je opet interesantnije nego linkovati ko će veću sprdnju napraviti na njegv rad.

Nije me uopšte opčinio nego dok sam se bavio istorijom glavna stvar mi je bila razvoj kritičkog mišljenja, što kod Herodota nema, i tumačenje dokaza u istoriografiji ali ne prvog reda nego posredni dokazi i tj dokazi drugog reda. Kada neko ko se predstavlja kao istoričar napiše da je 6 miliona Persijanaca napalo Grčku, ozbiljan čovek koji se bavi istoriografijom ili prestane da čita to komično štivo ili napiše kao Huan Luis Vives da je ispravno Herodota nazvati ocem laži a ne istorije. Istorija pošto nije egzaktna nauka zna jako da razočara mlade ljude koji je vole kada shvate u kakvoj su zabludi bili.

 

[brka45]

Valjda je Herodot kresnuo neku moju pra pra pra babu, pa ga branim... izvoli, raspali po njemu.

 

[olalija]

Svaka cast Radoslave na poznavanju istorije, lepo je videti da neko pored posla kojeg svi radimo slobodno vreme trosi na kvalitetne stvari. Vidi se da si recit u svojim videima, a sad znam kako si to postigao.

Moje zanimanje je i trebalo da bude istorija ali sam sa nekih 18 godina shvatio o čemu se radi, baš na jednoj raspravi gde su učestvovali profesori sa fil.fakulteta i gde je bila tema srednjovekovna Srbija i uzroci sloma iste. Pokačili smo se u vezi krivca gde sam ja insistirao da je Lazar Hrebeljanović a oni su radi odbrane srpskog Mita to negirali, uglavnom okolišavajući i generalizujući stvari pokušali su da odvedu priču u drugom smeru. Naravno ja sam insistirao da oni ispričaju ko je prvi dovodio turske plaćenike, za koga su ratovali, ko je uništio Altomanoviće kao najjaču srpsku kneževinu itd. Bezvoljno su to objasnili a meni je neki deda, verovatno neki penzionisani profesor rekao da nije popularno pričati o toj temi sem u akademskim krugovima. Tu sam definitivno rešio da počnem da tovim svinje, da se okanem ljudi i lažnog kritičkog mišljenja, posebno onih koji radi političkog trenutka lažu...Tako sam polako počeo da zaboravljam peloponeske ratove a pamtio kad koja krmača treba da se prasi i pronašao svoj mir sa najskupljim sportom na svetu, tovom svinja devedesetih godina...

 

[trtmrt]

@trtmrt
U istoriji postoji metodologija kojom se utvđuju činjenice.

Postoje i istorijske anomalije. I to se i ne krije.


Da li stvarno veruješ u nečije bulažnjenje da je toliko vekova moglo da se falsifikuje i da je sve bilo pohranjeno u jednom samostanu?

molim te procitaj sledece clanke i knjige, objavljene od univerziteta oxford i princeton:

One of our most detailed historical sources on imperial Rome is Cornelius Tacitus (56-120 CE), whose major works, the Annals and the Histories, span the history of the Roman Empire from the death of Augustus in 14 AD, to the death of Domitian in 96.

Here is how the French scholar Polydor Hochart introduced in 1890 the result of his investigation on “the authenticity of the Annals and the Histories of Tacitus,” building up on the work of John Wilson Ross published twelve years earlier, Tacitus and Bracciolini: The Annals forged in the XVth century (1878):

“At the beginning of the fifteenth century scholars had at their disposal no part of the works of Tacitus; they were supposed to be lost. It was around 1429 that Poggio Bracciolini and Niccoli of Florence brought to light a manuscript that contained the last six books of the Annals and the first five books of the Histories. It is this archetypal manuscript that served to make the copies that were in circulation until the use of printing. Now, when one wants to know where and how it came into their possession, one is surprised to find that they have given unacceptable explanations on this subject, that they either did not want or could not say the truth. About eighty years later, Pope Leo X was given a volume containing the first five books of the Annals. Its origin is also surrounded by darkness. / Why these mysteries? What confidence do those who exhibited these documents deserve? What guarantees do we have of their authenticity? / In considering these questions we shall first see that Poggio and Niccoli were not distinguished by honesty and loyalty, and that the search for ancient manuscripts was for them an industry, a means of acquiring money. / We will also notice that Poggio was one of the most learned men of his time, that he was also a clever calligrapher, and that he even had in his pay scribes trained by him to write on parchment in a remarkable way in Lombard and Carolin characters. Volumes coming out of his hands could thus imitate perfectly the ancient manuscripts, as he says himself. / We will also be able to see with what elements the Annals and the Histories were composed. Finally, in seeking who may have been the author of this literary fraud, we shall be led to think that, in all probability, the pseudo-Tacitus is none other than Poggio Bracciolini himself.

Hochart’s demonstration proceeds in two stages. First, he traces the origin of the manuscript discovered by Poggio and Niccoli, using Poggio’s correspondence as evidence of deception. Then Hochart deals with the emergence of the second manuscript, two years after Pope Leo X (a Medici) had promised great reward in gold to anyone who could provide him with unknown manuscripts of the ancient Greeks or Romans. Leo rewarded his unknown provider with 500 golden crowns, a fortune at that time, and immediately ordered the printing of the precious manuscript. Hochart concludes that the manuscript must have been supplied indirectly to Leo X by Jean-François Bracciolini, the son and sole inheritor of Poggio’s private library and papers, who happened to be secretary of Leo X at that time, and who used an anonymous intermediary in order to elude suspicion.


Both manuscripts are now preserved in Florence, so their age can be scientifically established, can’t it? That is questionable, but the truth, anyway, is that their age is simply assumed. For other works of Tacitus, such as Germania and De Agricola, we don’t even have any medieval manuscripts. David Schaps tells us that Germania was ignored throughout the Middle Ages but survived in a single manuscript that was found in Hersfeld Abbey in 1425, was brought to Italy and examined by Enea Silvio Piccolomini, later Pope Pius II, as well as by Bracciolini, then vanished from sight.

Poggio Bracciolini (1380-1459) is credited for “rediscovering and recovering a great number of classical Latin manuscripts, mostly decaying and forgotten in German, Swiss, and French monastic libraries” (Wikipedia). Hochart believes that Tacitus’ books are not his only forgeries. Under suspicion come other works by Cicero, Lucretius, Vitruvius, and Quintilian, to name just a few. For instance, Lucretius’ only known work, De rerum natura “virtually disappeared during the Middle Ages, but was rediscovered in 1417 in a monastery in Germany by Poggio Bracciolini” (Wikipedia). So was Quintilian’s only extant work, a twelve-volume textbook on rhetoric entitled Institutio Oratoria, whose discovery Poggio

The lucrative market of literary forgeries​

“Literary Forgery in Early Modern Europe, 1450-1800” was the subject of a 2012 conference, whose proceedings were published in 2018 by the John Hopkins University Press (who also published a 440-page catalog, Bibliotheca Fictiva: A Collection of Books & Manuscripts Relating to Literary Forgery, 400 BC-AD 2000). One forger discussed in that book is Annius of Viterbo (1432-1502), who produced a collection of eleven texts, attributed to a Chaldean, an Egyptian, a Persian, and several ancient Greeks and Romans, purporting to show that his native town of Viterbo had been an important center of culture during the Etruscan period.

How Fake is Roman Antiquity?

This is the first of a series of three articles challenging the conventional historical framework of the Mediterranean world from the Roman Empire to the Crusades. It is a collective contribution to an old debate that has gained new momentum in recent decades in the fringe of the academic world...

www.unz.com

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Forgery Beyond Deceit
Fabrication, Value, and the Desire for Ancient Rome

Edited by Scott McGill,John North Hopkins

ISBN13: 9780192869586

Imprint: Oxford University Press

Publisher: Oxford University Press

What do forgeries do? Forgery Beyond Deceit: Fabrication, Value, and the Desire for Ancient Rome explores that question with a focus on forgery in ancient Rome and of ancient Rome. Its chapters reach from antiquity to the twentieth century and cover literature and art, the two areas that predominate in forgery studies, as well as the forgery of physical books, coins, and religious relics. The book examines the cultural, historical, and rhetorical functions of forgery that extend beyond the desire to deceive and profit. It analyses forgery in connection with related phenomena like pseudepigraphy, fakes, and copies

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Forgery and Memory at the End of the First Millennium

Levi Roach

ISBN:9780691181660

Publisher: Princeton University Press

An in-depth exploration of documentary forgery at the turn of the first millennium

Forgery and Memory at the End of the First Millennium takes a fresh look at documentary forgery and historical memory in the Middle Ages. In the tenth and eleventh centuries, religious houses across Europe began falsifying texts to improve local documentary records on an unprecedented scale. As Levi Roach illustrates, the resulting wave of forgery signaled major shifts in society and political culture, shifts which would lay the foundations for the European ancien régime
A comparative history of falsified records at a crucial turning point in the Middle Ages, Forgery and Memory at the End of the First Millennium offers valuable insights into how institutions and individuals rewrote and reimagined the past.

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Forging History: From Antiquity to the Modern Period

Forging History: From Antiquity to the Modern Period

www.academia.edu

falsifikovanje "istorijskih" knjiga je izgleda bila opsta (profitabilna) zanimacija u europi srednjeg veka, e sad kad vidimo da je Tacitus nepostojeci, i da je sve sta je od njega cista fikcija, koliko se moze verovati ostalim istoricarima koji se pozivaju, ili jos gore nastavljaju se sa istorijom posle njega (u prevodu nastavljaju tamo gde je falsifikat stao, pa falsifikuju dalje...) opsta sprdnja....

 

[Zoran0230]

Moje zanimanje je i trebalo da bude istorija ali sam sa nekih 18 godina shvatio o čemu se radi, baš na jednoj raspravi gde su učestvovali profesori sa fil.fakulteta i gde je bila tema srednjovekovna Srbija i uzroci sloma iste. Pokačili smo se u vezi krivca gde sam ja insistirao da je Lazar Hrebeljanović a oni su radi odbrane srpskog Mita to negirali, uglavnom okolišavajući i generalizujući stvari pokušali su da odvedu priču u drugom smeru. Naravno ja sam insistirao da oni ispričaju ko je prvi dovodio turske plaćenike, za koga su ratovali, ko je uništio Altomanoviće kao najjaču srpsku kneževinu itd. Bezvoljno su to objasnili a meni je neki deda, verovatno neki penzionisani profesor rekao da nije popularno pričati o toj temi sem u akademskim krugovima. Tu sam definitivno rešio da počnem da tovim svinje, da se okanem ljudi i lažnog kritičkog mišljenja, posebno onih koji radi političkog trenutka lažu...Tako sam polako počeo da zaboravljam peloponeske ratove a pamtio kad koja krmača treba da se prasi i pronašao svoj mir sa najskupljim sportom na svetu, tovom svinja devedesetih godina...

Preporučio bih Slavomira Nastasijevića koji je pisao,o Caru Dušanu, i još nekim vladarima našim.Dotakao se u jednom romanu Ivana Groznog.Zatim preći na Dušana Baranina.I može se nešto lepo naučiti o našoj istoriji.A ovi grčki filozofi.....jesu filozofi.Omiljena grupa ljudi od postanka sveta pa do dana današnjeg.

 

[Banat013]

@trtmrt - aj priznaj da radis za MI6
Istina istorije se nikada nece moci pronaci ( obicni smrtnici ) .
Lepo je o tome raspravljati ali je ipak bolje raspravljati o necemu konkretnom . Naprimer imam pitanje koliko vas veruje u tezu da je Eva nastala od Adamovog rebra ?

 

[sremac84]

To je valjda ona izreka da istoriju pišu pobednici...
Magistra vita est ili kako već,pa ti sad nešto nauči...

 

[Matić]

Ko hoće naučiće.Šta sve ima da se pročita, samo je teško zamarati oči i naprezati moždane vijuge kako bi se shvatilo kako neke stvari funkcionišu.

 

[sremac84]

E sad još kažite da ni kraljević marko nije postojao...
Sva sreća više mi ležala fizika i geografija u školi...

 

[Matić]

Baća jel znaš onaj vic kada su se hvalili Englez, Francuz, Kinez, Grk i Srbin po čemu su poznati?

 

[sremac84]

Ne znam..

 

[Matić]

Zovem te.

 

[pidikanac]

@trtmrt - aj priznaj da radis za MI6
Istina istorije se nikada nece moci pronaci ( obicni smrtnici ) .
Lepo je o tome raspravljati ali je ipak bolje raspravljati o necemu konkretnom . Naprimer imam pitanje koliko vas veruje u tezu da je Eva nastala od Adamovog rebra ?

Ja verujem da je Eva nastala od Adamovog rebra. A da li ti veruješ da si nastao od majmuna?

 

[Zoran0230]

Ko su bili otpisani.Snimljena legendarna serija.Ko je u pravu,četnici ili partizani.

 

[MOMOSARIC]

Oces da kazes da je njegov cale majmun?